Like time and space are dented by the mass of stars, so does the fat man act as a bowling ball on the water bed of the collective unconscious.

Word is that some fat cat (so to speak) got spooked by a close call at a boating accident, got real obsessed with death, and woke up to the world around him. He seized on ascension as the way to avoid having his ticket punched like the rest of us poor bastards. The problem? He's a fitness freak, not a barge. So now he has to try and redefine the Fat Man as merely big and powerful, with the canned tan and the personal-trainer abs as the sign of wealth. Meanwhile, we get another selfish bastard with his hand on the tiller of the universe.

I'd say that this reads a bit like a past archetype, and that it has been replaced with... something. Either that, or it's a prime candidate for an ascension war;-)

I would swap one of the channels for something that actually deals with fatness or obesity, but that's just for flavour.

I like the idea of this archetype, I just don't think it fits society anymore. More and more studies show that the lower class are actually suffering from obesity for a number of reasons, and now fat is less about wealth and sometimes a result of lack thereof. Rich people these days aren't trying to gorge themselves, and instead are trying to eat healthier and to stay in shape. They also have better access to those things than lower income people.

Maybe this is an archetype that ascended way in the past, and now people are trying to bring him down in the hopes of a healthier new world when the time comes.

Good concept though. It is thought out well.

I worked on this with Mr Hallock and will offer my personal explanation for its outdatedness:

1) This might be the archetype that was ALMOST replaced when Alex Abel ALMOST ascended as the CEO. I say might because the details around Alex Abel's near miss is one of those things I things that I think each GM should get to decide for themselves.

and

2) Archetypes are based on perceptions not facts. It doesn't really matter that rich people are generally more healthy than poor people now, Boss Hog and the King Pin are still members of the general consciousness, the River Boat Tycoons might all be dead, but so are all the cowboys, and that doesn't stop their from being a masterless man archetype upheld by Hollywood and our beleifs.

I'd also point out that while Unknown Armies has a strong Western bias, there are a lot more people in countries we'd consider impoverished by Western standards where weight could very well still be a sign of wealth.

And going back to western bias, think of the stereotypical image of the sultan

But then couldn't this archetype then only work in certain poor countries? Isn't an archetype a global concept? Even more importantly, a universal one? Even at that, you would the have to be specific about where this archetype works, which would be a mess.

I think if you want to play this archetype, it's something that's dying fast. It makes sense that this is the archetype that Alex Abel almost knocked out, but I don't think that this is an archetype that can be staying long or is that strong in the cosmos. Which would be a great start for a cosmic level campaign.

What about in hip hop culture where the big pimp is pretty iconic?

Notorious B.I.G.
Fat Joe
Big Punisher
Biz Markie
Bubba Sparxxx

It has its roots in soul food eaten in the south, deep frying seen as the peak of cooking methods. This is even bleeding over into New York socialite circles, as you see food commentators on Iron Chef America talking up the virtues of bacon fat and frying any time someone uses those ingredients.

Other Fat Men in popular consciousness:

Marsellus Wallace
Jerry Falwell
Al Sharpton

I think the dissent about this archetype could be used as indicative of a war between the Fat Man and an aspiring Ascender who wants the archetype for his own.

Maybe this war could be centered on the old clown mythos of White Face / Red Nose. Red Nose is the Fat Man, the charismatic speaker. White Face desires to be this, but openly mocks and debases Red Nose as a way to express his own power.

Suge Knight is also quintessential Fat Man stuff.

Anyway, love the archetype!

The problem with just saying that there is a Fat man in hip hop culture is the fact that an avatar has to be perceived on a worldly level. There's nothing worldly about the fat man in this day in age. Even if he's present in other cultures doesn't make him avatar-ready. I don't think a present day person could be an avatar of the fat man because of the ever changing view of body shape in our culture. It used to be that the common man could never get fat, and fat was a sign of wealth. Now the tables have turned in the west, and hence the Fat Man is dying really hard, especially with the infectious taint the west spreads everywhere. Being fat is no longer a sign of luxury and importance--it's a sign of lower class, laziness and ignorance.

This avatar can work great in a game to some point because it once was a prominent figure. But now that connection is gone, and the worldly influence of such an avatar is gone, and if anything it has been replaced, probably by a recent ascended archetype.

If there was something worldly about the fat man today, like there is in classic avatars as the mother or the fool, then I would give this whole thing a break. But it's not, and we can't pretend it is in modern society.

And hip-hop does NOT have roots in soul food. There are different types of rap and hip-hop depending on the area, including southern rap, east coast, west coast, chicago, detroit, and so on. Now, Rock and Roll is influenced by southern blues, but that's another story entirely. Soul food and hip hop just happen to be next to each other from time to time, but soul food is not the source of hip hop. What are you trying to suggest, someone ate some corn bread and collard greens and suddenly hip hop was born? Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Soul food is mentioned in hip hop, without inspiring the genre.

I meant the Fat Man in hiphop culture has roots in the consumption of soul food as a preference.

And I'll respectfully disagree with you that hiphop culture isn't "worldly." Hiphop is really the only music that you can go anywhere in the developed world and find people both making and listening to it. Its all over South America, Africa, Europe, North America, Australia, and Asia.

Maybe I have a different perspective of it, living in the south. But I will accept your subjective opinion as absolute and no longer offer my input to ideas that people other than myself also think is interesting. Thanks Frisco! I'll tell my group to expect you as GM next week!

I don't deny the fact that hip hop is all over the world. I just said that fat man doesn't fit a world view. If you disagree, then you disagree. I don't deny that hip hop is infectious and everywhere, but at the same time hip hop is a sub culture, not part of the world culture or human culture that I think an effective avatar has to be a part of. That's how I feel about avatars: they're effective because everyone can identify them, no matter what race/location/age/background/etc. To me, the fat man is not universally accepted as a man of prestige and power. Until he is again, or if you play in a time where he was accepted as such (like when cliomancy was just being discovered) I don't think he's really a viable option for a PC, or as an avatar NPC.

There are still great ideas that I think Mr. Hallock's creation can be used... GMs can experiment with the idea of an archetype that used to be accepted world wide and has now lost his connection to earth. How is he kicked out of the cosmos? Is he really kicked out of the cosmos, or just there with no walking avatars? You can play with that a lot. And this is a great avatar to play with.

And I know the difference between opinion and fact, even when I'm typing it on my keyboard. So I'm surprised that you took my response so personally. Please understand I look at the ideas, not the person, when replying on these boards. If you disagree, you disagree, and I accept that and respect that. Let's shake hands and be done with hostility before this becomes a fight on the internet, because fighting on the internet never produces winners.

And if you still want me to GM you players, just drop a line. Let that stand for anyone who wants to. :P

You just simply refuted a post which was essentially a "I like this! Here are some ideas to update or make it more relevant! I'll probably use this in my game!" Leave your input or not, don't tell people they have bad ideas or enforce that your idea (that the Fat Man archetype is no longer relevant) is better than theirs. Anything else is pointless and just a fruitless personal attack.

Sorry, Exii, but you just can't take things personally around here either. I at least partly agree (as far as I can without actually meeting you and having a significant chat about this) with you that the Fat Man can be part of or maybe have a last refuge in/attempt to reform and conquer from - the hip hop culture. There's a lot of talk of Phat beats, Phat tyres, Phat cars, Phat girls to certainly make your connections viable.

And if you get mad enough at Frisco to never write anything here or at the mailing-list (you do get the mailing-list, don't you?), I think the site and the game would be poorer for it.

I was in India two years a go, and didn't hear a single piece of Hiphop for the entire trip. Had a hard time hearing any music at all that I could in any way recognize or relate to, that place is ALIEN. Sure, there's bound to be hiphop there, it's a billion people, you can find ANYTHING there, but it's not in any significant way a part of the culture. (Or didn't seem so for me, from my tourist viewpoint, they could all be laying down the phattest beats when whitey is gone, ait? ;-)

I'm from sweden, what do I know?

Mattias, Indian hiphop revolves around a style called Bhangra which mixes urban rhythms with Indian traditional music. Its quite big in Asia, has had some crossover success in the western world, and features in almost every major Bollywood hit of recent years. Many of the primary players aren't actually from India, but its fairly popular within the country nonetheless. Bhangra crosses over frequently with Tamil and Malaysian hiphop culture as well.

One of the bigger crossover hits that hit the western world was Mundian To Bach Ke by Punjabi MC, video found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLeUnINuxl0

I'm not mad enough to not read the site, I just have a penchant for arguing people's right to spout their ideas without getting shot down. There's no "correct" way to play Unknown Armies. Or rather, the only "correct" way to play Unknown Armies is the way that's the most entertaining for you as a player.

I do get the mailing list but I only lurk. I feel like the spam quotient focusing on "funny articles I saw on Fark" is a little high.

In the interests of education, here's more hiphop from around the world.

(Brazil)
Bonde Do Role - Solta O Frango
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgb6FxuaPQA

DJ Marlboro - Ela S Pensa Em Beijar (Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eWM4GpHzVs

(Japan)
East End X Yuri - Da.Yo.Ne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei7ejr3jo90

DJ Kentaro - Live @ DMC 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJLQG0TAp_s

(Native American!)
Shadowyze - Bumpy Roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLETubGW9i4

(British)
Dizzee Rascal - I Luv U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tntRTRkp2GY

(French)
Stacs Of Stamina - Ears
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcCERCXaEc

(African)
Emmanuel Jal - Baakiwara
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19iBFj0sa3E

Eedris Abdulkareem - Oko Omoge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0nCLB5X4Us

This culture is world wide and often stands in stark contrast to white Euro-centrism. Its reflective of emerging urban-primitivism in many places and will have a lot to do with what kind of Archetypes establish themselves in the next century. Concepts that are outdated in the white western world due to modernization are still very much valid amongst latinos and poverty stricken blacks in the Americas - hiphop is often a galvanization of attitudes that already exist in these places. Even as close as Mexico, upwards of 50% of the population lives below the poverty line in certain places. Fat Man iconography implying wealth and power in these places is still very valid and when you consider that South America, Africa, Asia, and a full third of North America are still largely in this state and many locations are still barely industrialized (or pre-industrialized!), I think this still has global resonance, even within American/European culture. This discussion suffers for the fact that the people who this Archetype would carry large amounts of emotional and social resonance with don't have the luxury to play Role Playing Games and chat on the internet.

I like this. I even think it's still relevant in Euro-centric western culture.

The notion of fat as a source of wealth does still exist. If anything, what's changed is whether or not that wealth is deserved. Heck, look at the UA book - one of the Rage Stimuli is "Those Fat Cats in Washington." If the archetype has shifted in the west, it's in the greater prominence of The Fat Man's wealth as being undeserved and gained through corrupt means.

As far as a shift in view of body types go, this is mostly due to a change in the people we view as celebrities rather than a shift in the type of bodies wealthy people have. Our celebrities have for the most part changed from industrialists and politicians to actors and musicians. Think back to the early 20th century in America and you think of people like Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie, and they are typically pictured as fat.

Thinness and wealth are only brought together in terms of people of prominent stature in the West. Our view of the wealthy who are not in the public eye is as it always was - fat.

I like this a lot. And, strange, but looking at the dispute between Frisco and Exii in the comments, from a perspective three years down the road, it doesn't appear that they didn't actually disagree on the most substantive point; the image of the Fat Man as successful was a universal attitude until comparatively recently. Now, in the Western world (and only there, thus far) a competing image of a fat man as low-class and slovenly has arisen, weakening the archetype and rendering it vulnerable to being overturned.

As this new concept of obesity as an indicator of poverty and ignorance takes root in the global consciousness, the Fat Man is being exposed to attack from two potential angles, depending on the inclinations of the godwalker gunning for him. A flashy Donald Trump type could try to retain the wealth/success aspects, while dumping the actual fat, and convert the archetype into something like the Charismatic Tycoon. A fat but impoverished godwalker, conversely, could try to supplant the archetype by ascending as the Fat Slob. In either event, replacing the old Fat Man with one of those two new concepts will easily clear the way for a planned or spontaneous ascension of the other.

While these new Western attitudes surrounding success and weight, have likely not yet built enough symbolic strength to push the entrenched Fat Man off his throne, that won't stop some determined dukes from trying, and that's the kind of thing that makes for interesting gameplay.

Oops! Double negative in the first sentence of my comments. I meant it does appear that they didn't disagree on blah, blah, blah...